umpire god complex (I'm gonna get blasted) can o worms? check.

bills9r · Jul 9, 2015

marriard said:
Opinions.. sure. You (and I mean you and several others on this thread) are going to feel that you are never going get this because you are under the misconception that some umpires intentionally are calling it one way. While something may unconsciously affect a call (because everyone has unconscious biases and are human), there are as close to ZERO officials that ever, ever do this (unless you have been a total *#*#* and caused it).

You may be getting what you describe already, but while you continue to go to games with a preconceived opinion and expectation of what is happening, you are more biased about this than you are claiming the officials might be.

I have umpired 4 different sports over 30 years at all levels and in that time I have seen an umpire consciously favor a team a total of 4 times. 99.99999% of officials go into games hoping to call a great, fair game no matter the teams.

I am not saying you are not getting crappy, unprepared umpires - you may well be. I am not saying you aren't getting bad calls. But they aren't changing umpires between innings, so the other team is getting them as well.

Until your are willing to change your mental attitude, it wont matter how much you pay. Because basically the only way this would work which would make you happy would be for you to pay for calls to go your way.

(and yes as you go through the ranks you will see better and better umpires, whose job gets harder and harder as the game is faster and more things happen quicker and things you don't see in younger ages happen all the time - which means all the same issues happen just on different types of plays)

Edit: Adding one thing> The ONLY umpires I can't stand are the ones who are not out there trying. If they are hustling, making position, and doing the best job they are capable of (just like I ask of our players) then I find I can deal with lesser umpires much easier even if they make a poor call. That may be because of my background of umpiring - you get into position, you use your mechanics correctly and the call is much easier. It is when you half-rear it, you are disrespecting the game and it is something under their direct control on game day.

By your immediate opinion, you just quantified my origional question. Your inital comments are what I experience some of the the time with umps, you don't know me, but imply I expect to be treated unfairly. That was never the intention of the post.

Heres how, by assuming I have a mental bias on what is occuring. What I have is experiences in dealing with these issues, a lot. I merely expect a job, any job, to be done correctly. If it can't be, repeatedly, by a person, then they should increase their training or leave that profession.

You and I don't know each other from Adam, but to assume that the only thing that would make me happy is to pay for calls to go my way, is a fairly offensive assumption.

I DO expect to pay an entry fee, and for that entry fee to go towards having officiating that is CALLED FAIRLY FOR BOTH SIDES, AND WITHIN PROSCRIBED RULES.

If we are getting beat, and the rules are be enforced as written and on both sides, then clearly we are not the better team that day.

The problem is the umpires that do not allow protests, are unwilling to discuss their interpretation of the rules, that are lazy, do not hussle to their spots, and could care less about doing it right. Those are the ones I have a problem with.

The best umpire we have in our area, does rec to travel to HS games. He's 74 years old. He enforces the rules, he hustles to his spot, everytime, his strike zone his more consistent than an atomic clock, I LOVE this guy, and I make sure I tell him every game we have him how much I appreciate his game calling.Unfortunatley, this gentleman is an exception, in our area.

I posted this question(s) for open dialect on what I see as a major concern for all who love the game. Maybe it's just our area, I don't know, that's why I asked.

Flame on.

Lenski · Jul 9, 2015

Comp said:
If you are sure the umpire has kicked a rule, there is only 1 word you need to know. PROTEST

Exactly! Pony up and protest if it's that important.

grcsftbll · Jul 9, 2015

I have pretty limited experience with protesting. My coach has never done it, nor have any of the coaches we've picked up with. We played against a team once that did, and the director basically said too bad, thanks for the $100. Of course, they really were wrong about what they were protesting so that went the way it should have. But do protests usually go that way, for those who are more experienced with them? Just curious.

marriard · Jul 9, 2015

bills9r said:
By your immediate opinion, you just quantified my origional question. Your inital comments are what I experience some of the the time with umps, you don't know me, but imply I expect to be treated unfairly. That was never the intention of the post.

I am sure it was not how you view the intent of your post. However it is how it comes off. You are the one going on about how umpires lose you games and aren't doing their job and miss calls and how unfair it all is. BTW, right now I DON'T umpire regularly and haven't for a few years. I am a coach just like you.

Heres how, by assuming I have a mental bias on what is occuring. What I have is experiences in dealing with these issues, a lot. I merely expect a job, any job, to be done correctly. If it can't be, repeatedly, by a person, then they should increase their training or leave that profession.

Yes, but you want it so it goes 'your way' and they get 100% of everything right. But the game moves fast, the strike zone changes every batter, catchers set up weird, plays happen all over the field, etc, etc. Expecting 100% judgement calls is not realistic.

Umpires are going to miss calls - even your examples were mostly missed calls (umpire missed a collision - that happens - there are a lot of things to be looking at.) Games and tournaments continue to work 2-man crews - there is meant to be 3 and even then you can't see everything. MLB uses 4 - and up to 7 in playoffs and they still miss calls.Sometimes 'judgement' is wrong - sometimes rules are in grey areas. And you can always take out your money and make an official protest if you think it really is worth it.

You and I don't know each other from Adam, but to assume that the only thing that would make me happy is to pay for calls to go my way, is a fairly offensive assumption.

Sure we do. I see coaches like you out there every week. Coming out to 'protest' (wrong word by the way) calls that are not appealable, questioning 'judgement', not understanding when and if an umpire can or should ask for assistance, not really understanding the interpretation of the rules - and yes, not understanding the umpire level standing in front of you . Blaming umpires every week for their losses because they believe the "blue got a call wrong."

I DO expect to pay an entry fee, and for that entry fee to go towards having officiating that is CALLED FAIRLY FOR BOTH SIDES, AND WITHIN PROSCRIBED RULES.

As long as it goes your way. And how often does a REAL rule issue come up? Once a weekend would be a LOT. Are we really talking about JUDGEMENT calls?

And where do you think umpires are going to get experience? You learn in games as you do everywhere else. Sometimes you are going to get less experienced umpires. Sometimes you run into obscure rules. Calling a consistent strike zone is EXTREMELY hard. One of the hardest things I had to learn as an official in any sport and something you have to work on (in games).

Sometimes your batters don't get a hit or miss a sign or make an error or your pitcher misses her spot or your player drops a catch. They aren't robots either.

If we are getting beat, and the rules are be enforced as written and on both sides, then clearly we are not the better team that day.

Pleeezzeee. That is a cop out. We lost because the umpire didn't know some aspect of a rule??? If you are getting beat, it is going to be more than a call or a missed rule interpretation. Not saying a blown call wont hurt you or be part of a loss, but it is just a part of a much bigger picture. "We put ourselves in a position where a bad call hurt us" is how you approach it.

If you are getting beat, then clearly you are not the better team that day. No conditions.

The problem is the umpires that do not allow protests, are unwilling to discuss their interpretation of the rules, that are lazy, do not hussle to their spots, and could care less about doing it right. Those are the ones I have a problem with.

Well I have issues with those umpires as well. There really isn't that many of them. There is one locally who I cringe every time he comes to our field. But he really is the exception.

The best umpire we have in our area, does rec to travel to HS games. He's 74 years old. He enforces the rules, he hustles to his spot, everytime, his strike zone his more consistent than an atomic clock, I LOVE this guy, and I make sure I tell him every game we have him how much I appreciate his game calling.Unfortunatley, this gentleman is an exception, in our area.

Great. We have guys like that out there as well. Experience counts (especially with strike zones). Working hard and respecting the game counts. Haven't met this guy of course, but love this umpire as you do.

I posted this question(s) for open dialect on what I see as a major concern for all who love the game. Maybe it's just our area, I don't know, that's why I asked.
.

It is isn't just your area. But your 'major concern' is wrong.

That isn't to say we don't need more umpires and that there shouldn't be effort to make them better umpires. We need more chances for umpires to be educated and evaluated. We need the investment from the game for these things.

And if you think umpires don't 'love the game' as much as anyone else out there, you would be 100% wrong. After you go home after your three pool games, most of them have three more to do. For most, bad calls eat them up. I still remember and cringe about a call I made 10 years ago in a basketball game that was REALLY wrong (in hindsight). I screwed that one up. Got the call wrong, managed the situation wrong. Still haunts me.

canyonjoe · Jul 9, 2015

I find outside of one organization that the umps are pretty good. They miss some calls and a few don't know some rules, but overall they are good. Some TD's that we play in encourage them to be friendly to the teams and I think it makes for a better environment. I had one a couple of years ago come up to me after a game during our break and say I was right on a call he had made. He took the time to look it up. The one organization though they act like they are the wizard of Oz if you want to discuss a ruling. They still make good calls, but just treat players and coaches like they are a bother. We have had bad calls cost us games and likely win some games. I don't ever recall thinking they are just out to get us (our fans always think that). As far as protesting, for the most part it's not going to do much good. Maybe in bracket play if it's the difference between staying and going home, but if you protest in pool not much will happen and you just pissed off a guy you might have 4 more times that weekend. The best umps make sure you treat them with respect and do so to you. When they miss a call you move on.

bills9r · Jul 9, 2015

marriard said:
marriard said:

I am sure it was not how you view the intent of your post. However it is how it comes off. You are the one going on about how umpires lose you games and aren't doing their job and miss calls and how unfair it all is. BTW, right now I DON'T umpire regularly and haven't for a few years. I am a coach just like you.

Click to expand...

I have not "gone on" about losing games to umpires. I have stated it has cost me some games, and provided an example.

Yes, but you want it so it goes 'your way' and they get 100% of everything right. But the game moves fast, the strike zone changes every batter, catchers set up weird, plays happen all over the field, etc, etc. Expecting 100% judgement calls is not realistic.

Click to expand...

I said in my OP, that this discussion was about hard and fast rules, not judgment calls. Please read content and respond to content, if your going to attempt to defend the undefensible.

Umpires are going to miss calls - even your examples were mostly missed calls (umpire missed a collision - that happens - there are a lot of things to be looking at.) Games and tournaments continue to work 2-man crews - there is meant to be 3 and even then you can't see everything. MLB uses 4 - and up to 7 in playoffs and they still miss calls.Sometimes 'judgement' is wrong - sometimes rules are in grey areas. And you can always take out your money and make an official protest if you think it really is worth it.

Click to expand...

My point is, should we invest more money to gurantee an accurate game?; including the proper amount of umpires present. We should NEVER have to pay to appeal or protest, because appealing and protesting are written into the rules of the game, paying to do so is not, and is only a creation of tourney directors.

Sure we do. I see coaches like you out there every week. Coming out to 'protest' (wrong word by the way) calls that are not appealable, questioning 'judgement', not understanding when and if an umpire can or should ask for assistance, not really understanding the interpretation of the rules - and yes, not understanding the umpire level standing in front of you . Blaming umpires every week for their losses because they believe the "blue got a call wrong."

Click to expand...

You do know how to read, correct? You are clearly not reading my statements. You don't know me, I don't know you, this is a fact. YOU are assuming I am a type, so we can go down that road, YOU are the GOD COMPLEX type, as clearly indicated by your inability to read and understand my. repeated, comments. You simply want to turn this to a directorate of what YOU know, please state opinions and back them up with an invetory of items of why you believe that way, without running others down.
I do not complain every weekend. I have given 2 examples of what I have experienced. I NEVER said this happens continually, but I have enough experience with these situtions to consider them a problem.

As long as it goes your way. And how often does a REAL rule issue come up? Once a weekend would be a LOT. Are we really talking about JUDGEMENT calls?

Click to expand...

2- 3 times in a 5 game weekend, repeatedly, over several weekends a season, and as I have stated repeatedly in and since my origional post, this has nothing to do with JUDGEMENT calls what so ever. Again, please fully read my comments.

And where do you think umpires are going to get experience? You learn in games as you do everywhere else. Sometimes you are going to get less experienced umpires. Sometimes you run into obscure rules. Calling a consistent strike zone is EXTREMELY hard. One of the hardest things I had to learn as an official in any sport and something you have to work on

Click to expand...

(in games).

As a judge once told me, ignorance of the law is no excuse to violate it. There should be a graduted system for umpires that starts them on low level games to gain experience, and as they do, their pay and demand for them should go up as well. If we were paying umps to the point of turning AWAY APPLICANTS, then we willl be able to hold them responsible for their good and bad actions. This is called free market employment, and it is what I am referencing when asking if we should pay our umps more. To which I say, yes, beacuse it will improve the game.

Sometimes your batters don't get a hit or miss a sign or make an error or your pitcher misses her spot or your player drops a catch. They aren't robots either.

Click to expand...

Players are not robots, but the extent of lack of knowledge of the rules between a 10-14 year old girl, and a multi year umpiring veteran should be dramatic. Doing your job properly should not involve being a robot, hence that is why the game involves so many judgemnt rules in the first place, but these are not the ones I am worried about.

Pleeezzeee. That is a cop out. We lost because the umpire didn't know some aspect of a rule??? If you are getting beat, it is going to be more than a call or a missed rule interpretation. Not saying a blown call wont hurt you or be part of a loss, but it is just a part of a much bigger picture. "We put ourselves in a position where a bad call hurt us" is how you approach it.

If you are getting beat, then clearly you are not the better team that day. No conditions.

Click to expand...

Yet again, please read my comments, I clearly stated; IF THE GAME IS BEING CALLED ACCURATELY AND FAIRLY TO BOTH SIDES, AND WE ARE LOSING, WE ARE NOT THE BEST TEAM THAT DAY". How is this a copout???? I also take full responsibility for our losses as a coach, do you? I assume no, as I assume you come down on your players for their actions, not your lack of training them or having a good game plan. (See how annoying it is to assume?)
QUIT, trying to imply, that I am whining or blaming our losses on umpires, I explained my comment of "MY FAIR SHARE" earlier, because it was not as clear as I wanted it to be.

Well I have issues with those umpires as well. There really isn't that many of them. There is one locally who I cringe every time he comes to our field. But he really is the exception.

Click to expand...

Then your umpire association is better then mine, by miles.

We have guys like that out there as well. Experience counts (especially with strike zones). Working hard and respecting the game counts. Haven't met this guy of course, but love this umpire as you do.

Click to expand...

Yup

It is isn't just your area. But your 'major concern' is wrong.

Click to expand...

Great, but if it's not just my area, how is it not a "major concern" to all that coach?

That isn't to say we don't need more umpires and that there shouldn't be effort to make them better umpires. We need more chances for umpires to be educated and evaluated. We need the investment from the game for these things.

Click to expand...

Really? So here your agreeing with me 100%? Here, Now??

And if you think umpires don't 'love the game' as much as anyone else out there, you would be 100% wrong. After you go home after your three pool games, most of them have three more to do. For most, bad calls eat them up. I still remember and cringe about a call I made 10 years ago in a basketball game that was REALLY wrong (in hindsight). I screwed that one up. Got the call wrong, managed the situation wrong. Still haunts me.

Click to expand...

I don't go home, I watch the rest of the games, because I truly love the sport. I am not wrong, you are not wrong, we merely have different experiences and perceptions of those people involved in those experiences.
Huh, you have only one bad call, in one game, 10 years ago, I perceive you to be an officiating GOD then, because that's a heck of a record. The Christian Lord himself screwed up way more than that (think platypus) and religious wars, and he is supposedly infallible

In the end, I have a few points.

I am enjoying the constructive dialog, but not the non reading posters, posting negative dialog.

My opinion, is that, you sir, know it all, and the rest of us are whiny losers blaming others for our woes.

I have thick skin and am taking all information, as long as it is constructive, and using it to better my knowledge of my beloved sport.

But my main opinion is that posters such as your self, who try to be domineering and boringly uninformative are why many people act as trolls on forum sites, and never feel comforatble posting things here, which is to the detriment of social learning and all those here looking for solid info. So take your many softballs, enjoy your many postings, and hopefully people don't take you seriously, as the propigating of incorrect information is the foundation for social fear of exclusion, and you are VERY good at that.

marriard · Jul 9, 2015

bills9r said:
I am enjoying the constructive dialog, but not the non reading posters, posting negative dialog.

My opinion, is that, you sir, know it all, and the rest of us are whiny losers blaming others for our woes.

I have thick skin and am taking all information, as long as it is constructive, and using it to better my knowledge of my beloved sport.

But my main opinion is that posters such as your self, who try to be domineering and boringly uninformative are why many people act as trolls on forum sites, and never feel comforatble posting things here, which is to the detriment of social learning and all those here looking for solid info. So take your many softballs, enjoy your many postings, and hopefully people don't take you seriously, as the propigating of incorrect information is the foundation for social fear of exclusion, and you are VERY good at that.[/B]

Hey, I just don't agree with you. Deleted the rest of this for brevity.

Your arguments are not new and not unique to this or any other sport at every level. People complain about refereeing quality all the way up to pro-level sports. And pro-umpires are unbelievably good at what they do.

And in fairness, in your original post you said

I have lost more than my share of games due to bad calls

I never said I made one bad call in my career. Believe me there is way, way more than that. Nature of the sports I have officiated means you are always going to get calls wrong. But there are particular incidents that still burn me up inside because when I officiate I take it VERY, VERY seriously and the example I used was meant to highlight that. There are as many as 10 that immediately come to mind and I would rather not sit down and think about it, because there are others I don't like to think about. I have umpired a LOT of games over the years.

Protests cost because when it didn't, coaches protested EVERYTHING. The money system makes a team put something on the line before they protest and reduces protests down to the current level (which is almost never). Is that a good thing? Maybe not perfect, and maybe the amount has become prohibitive which stops genuine protests, but it is much better than the other way where every coach angry over a call protested. That was not a good situation.

Graduated systems of umpiring sounds great, unless it is your game they are on. The best system is mentor/less experienced official where more experienced umpires are teamed up with less experienced colleagues along with an evaluator team regularly evaluating games. Neither of these systems are in place because again, coaches don't want to be the training ground, the tournaments are not set up this way by the orgs and because of lack of numbers the experienced umps and evaluators are on the field calling games. With rec opportunities becoming less and less (the amount of young umpires who used to come out of rec is almost gone - replaced by paid umpire associations calling rec games more and more), the young umpiring talent pool is really small. In general, umpire costs are 50% of tournament fees already so I am not sure how much more room there is for increasing the amount assigned to umpires.

And one of your two examples would be considered 'judgement'. If an umpire doesn't see a collision, he didn't see it. That it isn't a rule failure - he just didn't see it. And you are not allowed to assume something happened that you didn't see. Should he have seen it? That depends on where his mechanics say he should be looking at when it happened. Hard to tell without being there.

The second example (slap called a strike). Terrible call by all means (seriously you just don't call a swinging strike unless asked), but once called the PU can't engage without the BU asking him and one he made the call (which he shouldn't have) - the swing/no swing call is a judgement one. On this site there are long discussions on slappers bunting/not bunting and the rule book is extremely grey. Once he has judged there was a swing/strike the PU isn't going to over rule him unless there was a secondary event (like a foul ball)

PU never said a word, or asked for BU input. Batter out.

PU really can't say a word unless invited to by the BU once the BU makes this call. But as described, sounds like a terrible, terrible call.

It is not just the rules, but also the mechanics/responsibilities of how the game is called that are important. A decent primer for mechanics is here:
Umpire Mechanics
Not totally accurate, but good enough to start. Once you understand where they should be, it adds to the understanding of what they are doing out there (and if they are doing it right).

ga_smith · Jul 19, 2015

Count your blessing with umpires. As a former middle school athletic director I can say baseball/softball are usually the best of the bunch. Soccer....Had to swap the season with basketball to get ref's even though we knew off high school/college kids that could get certified and wanted to it. And I must say soccer ref's have much more of a "god" complex. GHSA cheerleading officials quit the due to not being paid on the spot. MS doesn't have a booster like HS so payments have to be different or we get in trouble. They refused to officiate. Basketball....forget they have a whistle or its blown at every breath. Football....It's wasn't my call coach.

After 17 years of coaching various sports I have never been thrown out of a game. Close though...Biggest argument was with the football white hat about who would keep the clock(this was before the game). We have teacher volunteer or pay a ref. I had a volunteer and WH said they couldn't do it. Needless to say we used our volunteer but I got 2 flags on the KO.

Best thing to do is establish a relationship early in the game.... ask them if they need a water. If that doesn't work start doing a rain dance.

Cowdogz · Jul 23, 2015

Last night's baseball game: Plate umpire warns our dugout for chirping about the strike zone. Later, he calls an obvious outside pitch a strike, and my teammate takes a long walk to keep from opening his mouth. As he steps back into the batter's box, the umpire says, "It's not my fault you guys aren't swinging the bats."

coach james · Jul 23, 2015

10u rec league championship game...
High school rules except no dts and no iff.
My girls up, runners on 1 and 2, no outs. I call my runners to delay steal as the catcher is throwing bat to the p..... Blue scream both runners are out for not returning to their previous bags.... the entire game went like this. We lost 5-6

umpire god complex (I'm gonna get blasted) can o worms? check.

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bills9r

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Not lost - just no idea where I am

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