Thread: Rule question

I need help from the umpire experts out there. This is a scenario for an expert only. A girl hits a ground ball to SS, the batter beats the throw to 1B, but runs over the base without touching it before the ball arrives. While the batter/runner is past 1B, the fielder catches the ball & touches 1B for an apparent force out. I always thought this was a force out, but a friend of mine who umps HS, told me that once a runner passes the base before the ball arrives she technically posses the base & now the play becomes a tag or an appeal play. We had this scenario in a game this weekend & the ump ruled my batter out, I tried to plead my case, but to no avail & my batter was called out. I could not find this rule in the book, so please help me.

You would think it's a force-out, but think about it this way. Runner on first goes to 3B on a single & misses 2B on her way to 3rd, I don't believe the SS can step on 2nd for a force out, it becomes a tag/appeal play correct?

There two types of appeal plays.

One is a dead ball appeal and happens after time has been called. This type of appeal is executed by any infielder verbally to the umpire.

The second (and most common type) is a live ball appeal. This appeal is made during a live ball while the ball is still in play and before time is granted. It can be made by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if still on the playing field.

So, if your batter-runner missed first and the throw was made this is a live ball appeal. If no throw is attempted at first and time is called then a dead ball appeal must be made. Going by how you described the play, it sounds like Blue got it right.

Yes, and question to CSHILT: practically speaking, there will rarely, if ever, be a dead-ball appeal of missing first-base on a play as described (play in the infield), because time out is not going to be given while the B-R is wandering around beyond first base. If, after missing the base, she gets back to first base before being tagged or the ball beating her to the bag (after the overrun), then she's going to be safe - am I missing anything?

in response to cshilt. Does the fielder have to verbalize to the ump that she is appealing the runner missing first? I agree that if the fielder tagged the runner she should be out, but just stepping on the base without saying anything she should not be called out. I think the ump should have made no call unless the fielder tagged the batter/runner or verbalized that she was appealing the runner missing first (live ball appeal)

Think of it this way, whenever you double someone up on a line drive you are making a live ball appeal. No, you don't have to verbalize a live ball appeal.

Flash101, yes pretty much the only time you can dead ball appeal a missed touch of first is if the b-r proceeded to another base and time is called.

This really is a great question and one I've never run against, at least knowingly based on this rule interpretation.
** What I am hearing is the B-R passes the base, the ball is THEN caught with an assumption of a foot on the base, BUT the B-R is NOT out yet, and if she comes back to 1B and touches the base BEFORE being tagged or before going to 2B, she CANNOT be out. ??? I must be misunderstanding. Honestly, I would have thought the B-R could NOT be safe unless she touches 1B, so this rule is interesting to me.
** Here is MY question: IF the runner possesses the base after overrunning it, then why ever concern for touching it? Unless a 1B would know to turn and tag the runner before she comes BACK to 1B, or if an overthrow and a direct path to 2B, thus an appeal to 1B, HOW COULD the runner be out based on this rule?

This is where rules clouds a simple principle. If the batter/runner hits a ball and the ball is fielded by the defense and thrown to 1B and caught and some part of the bag is touched while the ball is controlled and prior to the runner touching the bag, the runner is out. That's the end of the story.

A. If the ball gets to the bag prior to the runner reaching 1B it's a force out.
B. If the ball gets to the bag after runner runs passes first base (without touching it) and before they return and touch it, it's a live appeal out.

Principle is same in both cases, ball beats runner to bag touch, runner is out.