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Thread: Performance enhancing drugs

  1. #31
    Ex "Expert" Cannonball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftSocDad View Post
    I've never been a fan of random testing, but like you pointed out, your DD is worried and that's exactly what the people behind the testing culture want. It won't dissuade everyone from using questionable or banned substances, but has an effect on the degree of temptation.
    In my dd's case, she didn't know that that local soda had caffine in it. It is a white soda and is not soda in our community. My dd has been very careful to follow all of the rules and, if you knew her, she is never in trouble for anything. So, panic is perhaps the best adjective to describe her this morning when she found out that the drink had caffine in it.
    "A coach should not be judged on what they know but rather on what their players have learned." Bear Bryant

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    Certified softball maniac SoftSocDad's Avatar
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    There are many women and girls who work out not only for the health benefits, but because they want to achieve a more athletic look.

    The average American knows next to nothing about steroids. So it's common for people to just make up claims based on folklore that has almost no basis in reality. Some posts in this thread prove that. Most cannot look at a steroid user and accurately identify them as a user. I know teenage bikini competitors who are taking Winstrol. Their doses are just a lot smaller than the bodybuilders, so to anyone outside the steroid culture, it's not at all apparent that they are using. Livingontheroad knew the guys in his school who were using, but I'd bet most other people in the school were none the wiser.

    Our society is big on indoctrinating girls from an early age that certain looks are more desirable and then we sell them the tools needed to get that way. The makeup and weight-loss industries are huge for a reason, so it should come as no surprise at all that some measurable percentage of girls would look for other shortcuts to help achieve their appearance goals. One of the main reasons most people aren't aware of how common steroid use is concerns the fact that, outside of physician-prescribed use, it's illegal to manufacture, possess, distribute, or use these substances. So, if you're not in the club, chances are you're not going to know who is using and who is not.

    If you don't want your children to try anything, I still say it's best to educate yourself on the topic before simply trying to scare them with worst-case horror stories.

  3. #33
    Certified softball maniac chinamigarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    I have firsthand knowledge of the effects of steroids from being in the gyms in the 80s. I did not do them of course, so I am not making stuff up.

    They will not make women toned, they will make women ugly. Not only that, if you don't lift weights for power, you will get male side effects and no positive effects to muscle. I don't think softball coaches have them lift like that. (I could not get my HS players in the gym with the boys to begin with, who leave no "female friendly" hours for them to train, so they are certainly not lifting for muscle gain!)

    Finally, drugs is one thing, but scarring them with the ugly realities of a non-existent issue, about potential gender-appearance-altering drugs is silly. The sex/gender talk first (and studies show very few are doing that.)
    Did you read the link I posted? It talks about the fact that women can use 1/10 of the amount of steriods that men use and get results without the gender appearance altering. That over 5% of all teen age girls have used steriods for body toning issues for appearance sake, that is 1 out of 20 girls. They may not stay on them long, but how long is OK? Even how men use PEDs have changed since the 80s and the variety of drugs available for a variety of technical improvement in sports is staggering. To wave it off with "no girl will want to look like a weight lifter from the 80s" is not realistic. Sure you are right, no girl wants to look like Lou Ferigno, but they can take PEDs without that happening.

    My dd is in 9th grade, her volleyball coach had every girl in the program lifting. They all went in the weight room and they all worked out during the summer.
    Last edited by chinamigarden; 11-29-2011 at 10:32 PM. Reason: additonal point

  4. #34
    Certified softball maniac chinamigarden's Avatar
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    Here is a link to the Athena study that was mentioned in the article I linked earlier.

    http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/sch...chives-CDC.pdf

  5. #35
    I can talk softball all day livingontheroad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    I have firsthand knowledge of the effects of steroids from being in the gyms in the 80s. I did not do them of course, so I am not making stuff up.

    They will not make women toned, they will make women ugly. Not only that, if you don't lift weights for power, you will get male side effects and no positive effects to muscle. I don't think softball coaches have them lift like that. (I could not get my HS players in the gym with the boys to begin with, who leave no "female friendly" hours for them to train, so they are certainly not lifting for muscle gain!)

    Finally, drugs is one thing, but scarring them with the ugly realities of a non-existent issue, about potential gender-appearance-altering drugs is silly. The sex/gender talk first (and studies show very few are doing that.)
    There are androgens and anabolic compounds, mixtures of both, and drugs that have actions of both. Women can take low doses of mild anabolics with great success. A woman cannot take any amount of highly androgenic compounds withhout virilizing effects. The best feature of steroids (aside from size/strength) is you can do intense cardio and strict diet to get down to low bodyfat levels without losing muscle, something that is virtually impossible for most people without them. The safest drugs for women as I recall are Oxandrolone and Primobolan Depot. Im thinking back a few yrs, but nothing has changed.

    The ironic thing is that today, we could make excellent drugs with virtually no side effects, but since there is no legal market, it isnt done. Shame to many, Letting people perform harmful , risky surgery on others to change their appearance (lipo, implants, etc) is legal and accepted. Using hormones to prevent childbirth is legal and accepted. Using hormones to change appearance is.....forbidden.

    Virilization of women wasnt a problem until the Feds got Drs to stop prescribing here in the US in the 80s. Then the black market exploded, 90% of what was available in US was actually COUNTERFEIT made by Milano Labs in Tijuana, but they contained what they were labelled with, in nearly correct dosage. When they shut that "good" lab down is when the big problems with counterfeits began. After that they often contained NO active ingredients, or if they did the compound was not what was labelled and/or dosage was not what it was supposed to be. The early fakes were ridiculously easy to spot, broken english, misspelled words, plain labels. Eventually they became very difficult to spot unless you were experienced. Often the telltale was that the lot no. on the label was printed with the label, not "stamped" . Even product purchased from mexican pharmacies under Dr. prescription was counterfeit. This is where many women thinking they were taking a mild anabolic suffered irreversible virilizing effects of unknowingly taking strong androgens. Enlarged adams apple, deep raspy voice, facial hair, and a clitoris so enlarged it looks like a penis in their underwear. Of course, some hardcores risked it anyway. I recall hearing of two bodybuilders that got busted bringing steroids back from Mexico. They spent several days in jail before the police realized that one of them was a woman, as she had not shaved.

    You can still get limited stuff today, mostly by mailordering from overseas pharmacies and dealers. Occassionally "underground labs" pop up and supply real stuff for a while until the get busted. Since steroids are on the schedule III with drugs like cocaine, narcotics, etc, its serious stuff to get busted. Not only will you be prosecuted for possesion, but also smuggling, and intent to distribute. A first offender with less than 3 mo personal supply wont do time, but may spend $20,000 + in legal fees There are ways to mailorder where even if caught they dont have the evidence to prosecute you. Very risky though still. The safest is when UG labs are inside the US, as the US mail isnt opened, unlike almost all the stuff coming thru customs. These UG labs are the guys mixing powders in a bathtub and creating injectibles with varying amounts of sterilization.

    Many opt to extract the trenbolone acetate from cattle implants and make their own homebrew injectibles instead. Kitchen chemistry at its finest. Others mail order the powders from china and do it too. Highly androgenic and definitely not something a woman should even get close too.

    But the bottom line is, it is not that easy to obtain legit steroids on the black market anymore. Stolen shipments may occur and be marketed periodically. But many products out there are counterfeit containing no active ingredients, so even if someone thinks they are taking something, there is still a very significant chance that they are not. It is difficult to even purchase legit steroids in Mexico WITH a legal mexican Dr. Prescription today, at least in cities close to the border. To get away from counterfeits requires going deeper into Mexico. There are a few that people look for that have never been counterfeited and stick to those. Most users know how to spot the difference between the counterfeits and the real for the products they want, or they quickly learn too after spending $1000 for nothing a few times.

    In the past few yrs, Drs are finally recognizing the anti aging benefits of testosterone supplementation for men. As men get older their serum testosterone level declines, leads to loss of lean body wt, fatigue, inability to concentrate, memory loss, etc. This is now called male menopause. It is a legit reason to treat with testosterone. So many Drs will give shots with a testosterone injectible like cypionate , but only in the office, they wont prescribe it. And a woman would be a fool to take testosterone. Androgel is a joke, and a hassle, it is only mildly therapeutic, takes weeks to raise test level only slightly, etc. These drugs arent an option for women, ever anyway.
    Last edited by livingontheroad; 11-29-2011 at 11:57 PM.

  6. #36
    Softball Junkie undergroundga's Avatar
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    5% of girls trying steroids is scarey. Those steroids being fake, even scarier.
    Do I think my 9 yoa dd and her 10u teammates are in the bathroom juicing so they can compete in a 12u tournament? No! I also don't think she is smoking crack or haveing sex with her 9yoa boyfriend(that she doesn't even talk to on the phone)? Heck no! Do I still need to talk with her about drugs and sex? Yes. You don't have to talk to your kids about these things but I will talk to mine.
    As long as there are athletes there will be pressure to gain an edge. Don't make the mistake and think that this doesn't apply just because they are girls.
    Like I said earlier, after talking to my dd about what happened at Penn State(and now Syracuse) steroids should be a breeze.
    What I can't seem to tell her is that ther is no Santa Clause.

  7. #37
    Certified softball maniac SoftSocDad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livingontheroad View Post
    It is difficult to even purchase legit steroids in Mexico WITH a legal mexican Dr. Prescription today, at least in cities close to the border.
    People can still buy whatever they want at the pharmacies in Tijuana. The difficulty involves getting those purchases back into the U.S. Ten years ago, it was nothing for someone to walk back across the border with hundreds of vials, but every pedestrian package is x-rayed now.

    The internet has been a major game changer. Not only do potential users have easier access to materials, but they also have greater access to information about these substances.

    Couple that increased access with the ever-increasing incentives for athletes to excel and this is something that's worth talking to young people about, even if softball performance is barely in the conversation.

  8. #38
    I can talk softball all day livingontheroad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftSocDad View Post
    People can still buy whatever they want at the pharmacies in Tijuana. The difficulty involves getting those purchases back into the U.S. Ten years ago, it was nothing for someone to walk back across the border with hundreds of vials, but every pedestrian package is x-rayed now.

    The internet has been a major game changer. Not only do potential users have easier access to materials, but they also have greater access to information about these substances.

    Couple that increased access with the ever-increasing incentives for athletes to excel and this is something that's worth talking to young people about, even if softball performance is barely in the conversation.
    The pharmacies in border cities like Tijuana and Laredo are loaded to the gills with counterfeits, buyers must know the difference, or go much deeper into Mexico. Many pharmacies also work with police to tip them off, even when purchasing with mexican Dr prescription. The police may then harass, intimidate to get a bribe (which is usually all the cash you have), confiscate the drugs and return them to the pharmacy. Rinse. Repeat. Or may notify customs who patiently wait at the border crossing. Far too risky for many to even attempt there unless self administering before returning to US.

    Better option for many is a cruise ship that ports deep in mexico then returns to US. 2000 people getting off a ship in 15 min, you cannot even find a person to hand a customs card to.

    Yes there is more available knowledge of how-to today. Its a far cry from when the only thing out there was Dan Duchaine's little book. Not sure if that is good or bad. But I wouldnt say access is easier. It is more visible for sure, but I remember when someone could purchase whatever was wanted in most any gym around from a good guy, or go to any Dr and they would prescribe it. That was "easy", and safe. Added benefit is the Dr would monitor bloodwork, cholesterol, pressure, liver, etc too. There are several paths for access today, none very good at all, IMO.
    Last edited by livingontheroad; 11-30-2011 at 07:45 PM.

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