Too Many Coaches?

osagedr said:

Thank you Ken. In fact a half hour ago I got a text from the "real" PC saying the team PC had been in touch with him regarding DD and "the plan" and they were going to discuss. I'm hopeful that it will work out okay. It's not lost on me that part of DD's development as a ballplayer is learning to take direction from coaches even when you disagree with them. It's just difficult to see time being spent unproductively when you know she improves in leaps and bounds with her "real" PC.

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I may be wrong but this seems like a really good sign to me, the willingness to reach out to the PC so they can work together to help your DD develop. Dunno, sounds like a winner.

I guess my dumb question would be, How much do you pay them both ???

Joseph Sciara said:

A couple things I picked up. First, your organization needs to have stronger leadership. If there is an organizational PC, then all ACs and others giving pitching instruction in the organization should be following their mechanics/style. Every teams assistant that works with pitchers should first go train under the organizational PC.

Second, I'm wondering if your daughter is getting discouraged, or if she is picking up the negative vibes from elsewhere(mom or dad)? I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just saying to be very careful what you discuss in front of your daughter. You don't want her to get the label of "uncoachable kid", especially if she's not...The girls on our team are currently participating in college exposure camps. I cringe when I see what some coaches at very high levels are teaching (most are very good, but some...). It's good if your daughter learns early to be flexible with instruction, and be able to return to her form after she shows the coaches that she is able to adapt.

Third, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm wandering about the 2 changeup thing myself. Every girl I've seen try and do this has two below average change ups. Maybe your daughter is young enough that she is trying to decide which she is most comfortable with, but at some point is the goal to pick 1 and perfect it? It kind of reminds me of the football analogy that says if you have 2 starting QBs, then you really have none. Can you just give us your plan with this? I'm just really interested in the thought process.

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Thanks very much for this thoughtful response. I agree on the "flexible with instruction" part and have tried to be patient in that respect - it's just sooooooo hard to watch her get worse just for the sake of being a good soldier.

I don't think the plan involves the kid actually having multiple changeups, but there are two parts: first, spending enough time with each of the changeups to find which really is best for her. Second, having DD being able to move between pitches easily and return to a solid fastball on command. I think this is okay given that it's more than five months until the season starts, and moreover am giving PC the benefit of the doubt given the great improvement DD has made under his instruction.

Perfect Circle said:

I guess my dumb question would be, How much do you pay them both ???

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During organization-arranged workouts, nothing - it's all covered by the organization, which is well-sponsored. DD only joined the organization in September but has a long-term relationship with PC going back to his winter clinics for years. This summer we did hire him to work with her in preparation for tryouts (half a dozen times at $50/hr but he'd often spend at least 90 minutes with her, sometimes two hours, and refuse to take anything extra). DD had her choice of teams and picked this one, even knowing it would mean less circle time, to get instructional time with this PC.

osagedr said:

During organization-arranged workouts, nothing - it's all covered by the organization, which is well-sponsored. DD only joined the organization in September but has a long-term relationship with PC going back to his winter clinics for years. This summer we did hire him to work with her in preparation for tryouts (half a dozen times at $50/hr but he'd often spend at least 90 minutes with her, sometimes two hours, and refuse to take anything extra). DD had her choice of teams and picked this one, even knowing it would mean less circle time, to get instructional time with this PC.

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Gotcha...Just Guessing here... What I'm thinking is Your PC was just subbing out a client to one of his Asst. But it wouldn't make since that they are not on same page. Guessing that he can't get through to the other one, because they were a Pitcher. They only know what they knew. They have a burden of legacy.

So to me, it sounds like they are in completion. The pitcher can't share the history, and because of an un-willingness to forget the history, and learn your PC's approach, he isn't going to just give it to her. So then the battle between the two, to see who can turn out the best. I think Your PC, has kinda dropped the ball for your DD, by letting her get practiced on. If the other was teaching HE, would he put a stop to it ???

Back in the day, if you had a Coach that was trying to change things, Uncle HOW would love to call them....from Cali... Even if they wasn't his (On Site) students.... He relished calling....Not sure what he'd say, but I'd guess He would tell them, He was a pitcher, and a Author ???? JMHO

When I first read OP... I wonder why you didn't hone in on the extent of pitching. A conversation with a real pitcher could last days, with an invite to house to see TB trophy's...room full of shirts.... You-Tube video Team Name D1-2-3.... ect

CoachJD said:

Here's the flip side to that and how to handle it: I need to meddle with one of the pitchers on my high school team. Her sister pitched in HS (though she was primarily a catcher). Her parents coach her in rec league. She's been taught HE mechanics, and while she's getting better using those mechanics (and has the most upside as a pitcher of all the girls at the school), she's obviously nowhere near where she could be.

Anything I tell her is going to be seen as meddling (and I suppose it is, in a way). Now, I'm hardly an expert in the mechanics discussed here, but I understand the basics and I understand why I/R is better. But since I'm not an expert pitching coach and she has multiple influences working against what I want to teach her, it's going to be tough to get her pitching the right way.

It's a twist on what I usually read here (parents who know what's best for their DDs/high school coaches who don't have a clue but insist on teaching it "their way"). Not sure how to handle it.

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With you as her head coach, I think you're in the best position to say something. Bring her and her parents in and show them video of high level fastpitch pitchers and let them decide for themselves. Don't degrade what they have been getting but encourage them to look to move on to different mechanics.

To me that is a better deal than having to go to a HC that is HE and you're trying to convince them. Lol

Good luck!

Ugh; thought this had blown over but last night chatting with the HC whose perspective is basically if the player is on the team then the team's coaches are in charge of all aspects and the instruction of team coaches takes priority over the instruction of "outside" coaches (despite the fact her "real" PC is a VP in the organization). It's irritating, bordering on frustrating, that people don't get how personal and important the PC/pitcher relationship is for an elite pitcher.

My daughter has a great hitting coach and if someone else told her that it's their way or no way, that would be a real problem.


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Pop time 44 said:

My daughter has a great hitting coach and if someone else told her that it's their way or no way, that would be a real problem.

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Great hitting coach in your opinion. The coaches viewpoint may differ.

GunnerShotgun said:

Great hitting coach in your opinion. The coaches viewpoint may differ.

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In the end it is about production, if you are hitting .500 or better driving the ball to the gaps, seldom strikeout, etc. I'm not going to make any wholesale changes, I might mention something but I would re enforce it was an option that you could take it or leave no problem.

If you are hitting under .200, strikeout half the time and everything you hit is a weak grounder or pop up then...I'm going to let you know if you have had a private hitting coach for a year and don't want to cross him that you are free to waste your money but if production does not pick up you DD will find herself sliding down the batting order and eventually onto the bench, and the fact that she steps into the bucket and swings flat are not suggestions to fix but the reason her production is terrible and need to be fixed and you can take it or leave it at your own peril.

Same goes for pitching. If you can't hit you spots, are the slowest in the rotation, keep either hitting batters, walking them or getting bombed then maybe the fact that you pitch HE, bend over during your release and barely step off the plate aren't just suggestions anymore. If you average two strikeouts an inning, hit your spots and regularly throw shutout and I say "maybe pushing out a little more than up during your drive would help get that extra mile or two per hour you have been looking for" it's just a suggestion try it out see how it feels if it works fine if not go back to what feels right.
[MENTION=15293]osagedr[/MENTION] I would simply ask these assistant coaches that want to provide pitching advice "if they are getting paid $40 per hour to teach or if they pitched for a collegiate or professional organization" if the answer is no politely tell them you are investing too much time and money in her private pitching lessons to try and undo what she has been taught.

Now if you are really brave feel free to post a video and there will be plenty of folks that will let you know if she if going in the right direction or if she need to make any big changes maybe by the end of the season she can be knocking on that #1 spot